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Hue
Oct 23, 2013 22:16:16 GMT
Post by Ratchet on Oct 23, 2013 22:16:16 GMT
Rotaretilbo Wow...2 years.. And that's interesting. But my question is, what made HGMM die out? In fact, what made the other Heavens communties die? Because, I assume HGMM was made to bring activity to games, as the other communities were hosting inactive games. Was it that people had suddenly lost interest in Mafia, or did every community have splits in it, or was there another reason? The reason that I ask is because I find that it can be hard to find Mafia communities, and I don't believe I'm on a forum (other than this one) which is primarily centered at running Mafia games. Yeah, there are some on anime-forum communities, but if it's anything like OPB, they're closed in their own shell, they see Mafia as their way or no way (although OPB is a community full of volatile and egotistical users who honestly believe that they are among the best Mafia players on the internet). I don't really enjoy Mafia Communities like that. I imagine FTB was similar before you and Dante game (I was inactive there at the time), and as I said, solid Mafia communites are very rare. So it's a shame for a whole ton if Mafia-centered sites (I think) to die out.
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Hue
Oct 24, 2013 1:38:15 GMT
Post by Rotaretilbo on Oct 24, 2013 1:38:15 GMT
It's a complex issue, and to really appreciate what happened, you need to understand the history of mafia on HeavenGames (HG).
Now, I don't know exactly how mafia came to HG. My first forays into the Internet began in 2003, and I didn't happen upon HG until 2004. What I do know is that when I first came upon HG, the various Heavens were separate communities. The main draw of HG back in the day was the scenario design community for the various RTS games it supported. I joined Empires Heaven (EH) to get advice on scenario design and download other people's finished scenarios. We all knew of the other Heavens, but only a few of us ventured from EH, and it's my understanding that most of the other Heavens operated similarly.
Now, as best I can tell, mafia first came to HG in 2002 from MafiaScum.net. There are references to some section of HG Main that was later deleted as being the first place where mafia was run on HG, but the first place I can find undeleted mafia games is Age of Mythology Heaven (AoMH). From there, it appears to have spread to Outside Discussion (OD) in 2003. From OD, it spread to Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds Heaven (SWGBH) and Age of Kings Heaven (AoKH) in 2004. However, while mafia spread from one community to the next, that was the extent of any interaction between the communities, and as a result, each of the communities developed their own way of playing mafia independently of one another. At AoMH, it was very typical for games to use a partially open setup and for claiming to be forbidden. At OD, the forefront strategy was to get as much information out in the open to start in the belief that this would make it more difficult for scum to lie. At SWGBH, it was common for the host to use the writeups to drop subtle hints about the identity of the killer(s). At AoKH, it was typical for the town to no lynch unless they had solid evidence. As time passed, these things, which had started out as just interesting quirks in early games at their respective communities turned into outright playstyles of those communities. A few things remained static, of course; games were always majority lynch and deadlines for day were only set if activity dwindled, for example.
Eventually, mafia spread further. AoKHers brought it to Battle for Middle Earth 2 Heaven (BfME2H) and SWGBHers brought it to the newly formed Halo Wars Heaven (HWH) in 2006. Unlike before, these new mafia communities adopted the same general playstyles of their parent communities. This is where I enter our story. In 2006, EH was on its last leg. The developer of Empires: Dawn of the Modern World, Stainless Steel Studios, had been cut off by their newest publisher Midway, and the publisher of Empires: Dawn of the Modern World, Activision, had ceased support of the game. Interest in the game was dwindling, and the scenario design community was really all that was left. The head moderator (called a Seraph) had resigned and gone off to college, and rather than find a replacement, EH was archived. Now, Halo Wars Heaven had just been opened, and I happened to know the guy who had been selected as the Seraph for HWH, so I made it my knew home. As I mentioned, mafia had just come to HWH from SWGBH, and I was eager to try it out.
Now, HWH was different from all of the other Heavens on HG. First, it was opened some three years before the game released, which meant that there wasn't a lot to talk about, other than conjecture. Worse yet, Halo Wars was a console RTS, which meant that the chances of there being a scenario design community were very slim. Especially in those early years, when there was little to talk about, mafia was how we passed the time. There were probably no more than 15 of us, and all of us enjoyed playing mafia. At this Heaven that should have been utterly dead, there was a good level of daily activity.
Other Seraphs took notice of this strange phenomena. At the beginning of 2008, I was invited by the Seraph of Empire Earth Heaven (EEH) to come host a mafia calendar there in the hopes that the activity generated by mafia would stave off the impending archival of EEH. Naturally, I agreed. That was when we had two realizations. HWH, like most other mafia communities, could only really afford to run one game at a time. The first problem was that, if you died in the current game, you had to wait for it to finish before you could play again. And some of us really wanted to play in more than one game at a time. The second was that the line to host got pretty long. When I brought a calendar to EEH, both problems were resolved. I could play in one game at HWH and one game at EEH, and having two queues to put games in meant that both got shorter. Moreover, as the communities began to share a playerbase, both could afford to run a second game (a mini) in tandem to the normal game being run. Everyone won. World in Conflict Heaven (WiCH) was the next to invite me to host a calendar there. Like HWH, they had opened prior to their game being released, and needed something to keep the forum alive until the game did release. This was an opportunity to potentially play in three full games at the same time, and further shortened the queues at EEH and HWH by moving some games over to WiCH. When the current host of the HWH calendar had to go off to college, I was a natural choice to take over.
With mafia being pretty much the dominant topic at HWH, EEH, and WiCH, we understandably spent a lot of time discussing mafia, not just in game, but out of game. It was at this point that we began to shed our preconceptions about mafia. For most of us, it meant abandoning the newspaper model in which the host hints at the killer in the writeups. We realized that, while it was ok to run a game using this model, it was not fundamental to mafia, and thus not appropriate for every game. We broke mafia down to its core and built from there, eventually coalescing into three emergent styles of hosting. The first was mechanic, which used some overriding global mechanic which gave it a unique twist. The second was condition, which was used hidden predefined conditions to make the game interesting. The third was chaos, which used experimental roles to make the game unique. This also saw a lot of hosts moving away from vanilla and towards power roles as a means of filling out the town beyond the core power roles of Cop, Doctor, Roleblocker, and Vigilante.
For a few of us, however, it just wasn't enough. Mafia was a game of logic and reason, and so moved at a fairly slow pace. Some of us wanted more. We began playing at other established mafia communities, first BfME2H, then SWGBH, and then AoMH. And as we breached each community, we brought with us this concept that mafia was something beyond whatever single playstyle the community had adopted. At its peak at the beginning of 2009, I and those like me were playing across the twelve Heavens that had mafia communities. We even got EH reopened with mafia. The only place I didn't venture was OD, which had a capricious isolationism to it. OD was notorious for flame wars, trolling, and all manner of unpleasant behavior.
Mafia had become such a big deal on HG that Exco announced that they were going to open a section on HG Main where everyone could come together and play mafia. It sounded like a wonderful idea, at the time. I was asked to host the calendar there, given the expansiveness of calendars I already ran. But there were two problems with this new section, called HeavenGames Main Mafia (HGMM). First, with how large its community was from the start, we could run three full games and three mini games at once. For a lot of people, this defeated the main incentive of playing at multiple communities, and without those people, most of the mafia communities couldn't really support themselves. Moreover, some of the mafia communities were already started to die out; WiCH, for example, had been slowly dying out. Having a single converged community where inactivity would never be an issue was all the excuse people needed to abandon the less active Heavens. It didn't happen all at once - minor Heavens like Dawn of Fantasy Heaven (DoFH), Spore Heaven (SpH), Empires at War Heaven (EaWH), EH, EEH, HWH, and WiCH died out first, while major Heavens like SWGBH and BfME2H died out later - but in one month's time, ten of the fourteen mafia communities had completely died out. AoMH and OD died out a few months later, and AoKH only survived because many of its players didn't migrate to HGMM until later.
And frankly, while it was a shame for so many games in progress to suddenly die off, it wasn't necessarily a bad thing. HGMM promised to meet all of our mafia needs, and many of the Heavens mafia had been propping up had long stopped being about anything other than mafia. However, that's when the second problem surfaced. Across the twelve Heavens, we had all come to an understanding about mafia. We had moved past the rigid preconceptions our individual communities had held about mafia. After much debate, we had adopted random pressure as the best way to open Day 1, and had come to realize that scum had an easier time lying if the town was open with all of their information. OD, however, had never moved past their preconceptions. Worse yet, OD had never actually established a calendar to moderate mafia, as only a few people were ever actually interested in hosting there, so one was never necessary. When OD came to HGMM, they were up in arms over the fact that there was a line in which they had to wait in if they wanted to host a game. And as I mentioned before, ODers had a penchant for being very vocal and very aggressive. It took them only a week to whine enough that the Seraph of HGMM announced that we were going to try it without a calendar to see if it was better.
And, exactly as I had predicted in my fight against the ODers, everything went to shit. What OD couldn't appreciate was that, because we weren't all assholes who ran new people off for fun, a lot of people wanted to try their hands at hosting. With six games already running, there were suddenly four more in signups. Before those had even started, two more signups went up. Without a line, there was chaos. The calendar was a finely tuned instrument with three primary directives: guarantee that all games being hosted will get enough players to start, guarantee that players won't get burnt out on mafia, and guarantee that hosts will put time and effort into their games. It accomplished all of these by restricting the number of games being played at any given time. Without that limitation, HGMM was flooded with subpar games. Players became picky over which games they would play in, and as a result, most of the games couldn't get enough players to start, and those that did start were of notably lower quality than games run prior to HGMM. It was a shitstorm, and in its wake, two thirds of the players on HG gave up and moved on, including the Seraph who had agreed to "test out" having no calendar. After a year, most of the ODers themselves gave up on HGMM, and I returned to bring the calendar back. After that, we made some progress towards what we had once been, but OD had dealt mafia on HG a gaping wound, and our efforts couldn't stop the bleeding.
In the end, we weren't retaining enough new players. During OD's shitstorm, new players would want to host, have their games fail to even start, and then just quit. Countless potential players were lost to this. By the time the calendar was brought back, we were already at such a deficit that attracting new players in and of itself was difficult. All that remained were the trolls and the lurkers, and neither was particularly endearing to the new players. I made a lot of effort trying to bring in new players, and everyone single one was run off either by the pervasive inactivity or the belligerence that OD had instilled on many of those that remained.
Mafia still runs at HGMM. There are a handful of trolls and lurkers who are too stubborn to give up because they know that there is nothing left for them elsewhere. Mafia is dead across the Internet. Aside from HG, all that remains are tiny mafia communities like FTB that haven't shed their preconceptions about mafia yet.
And that, Ratchet, is why mafia at HG is dead.
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Hue
Oct 24, 2013 7:11:01 GMT
Post by Ratchet on Oct 24, 2013 7:11:01 GMT
Rotaretilbo Ah, I see. So, the main party to fault was the members of OD, coming to HGMM and ruining what made the Mafia work on HGMM, all because they held a preconception that having a calander wasn't needed, and thus, didn't want one. Thank you for sharing that, it was an interesting read.
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Hue
Oct 24, 2013 7:30:52 GMT
Post by Rotaretilbo on Oct 24, 2013 7:30:52 GMT
That was a big part of it, yes. Another was that we kept track of wins, and that became an item of obsession among many at HGMM. People realized that if they signed up for every game and then just lurked in all of them, they would have a better chance of getting lots of wins than if they signed up for as many games as they could reasonably contribute to. Sort of like portrait farming in multiplayer of StarCraft II, where you just DC from every game and start a new one because you'll get a win from like 25% of them but you can play ten times as many games in the same amount of time.
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Hue
Oct 28, 2013 22:16:27 GMT
Post by Ratchet on Oct 28, 2013 22:16:27 GMT
Rotaretilbo Ah, so people "played" Mafia to make their records look better, rather than for the enjoyment. Which kind of defeats the purpose. If you sign up to play Mafia, I would presume it would be for entertainment purposes, not for the "glory" gained from winning something, especially when you haven't contributed to that win whatsoever.
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Hue
Oct 29, 2013 8:35:03 GMT
Post by Rotaretilbo on Oct 29, 2013 8:35:03 GMT
It's why I've discontinued including a Hall of Fame in my post-HG calendars. It worked fine when I adopted it in 2008 and early 2009 because the playerbase was already well established and not obsessed specifically with winning, but when the playerbases converged in mid-2009 at HGMM, the new super playerbase was obsessed with wins, which both represented a level of respect one might receive and often determined who the doctors would protect in the early game (regardless of actual player skill).
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Hue
Oct 29, 2013 14:44:22 GMT
Post by Ratchet on Oct 29, 2013 14:44:22 GMT
Rotaretilbo Ah, I see, I see. To be honest, I think simply listing the winners on the calendar is enough, a Hall of Fame is nice and all, but as you say, if it causes people to become obsessed with winning, in order to look better, then it kind of defeats the purpose of having one (and it doesn't really represent skill level, like it should do).
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Hue
Oct 31, 2013 23:13:05 GMT
Post by Leorion on Oct 31, 2013 23:13:05 GMT
Ohhh Ratchet that is why it is an unspoken rule to always lynch you... >__>
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Hue
Oct 31, 2013 23:27:27 GMT
via mobile
Post by Ratchet on Oct 31, 2013 23:27:27 GMT
Ohhh Ratchet that is why it is an unspoken rule to always lynch you... >__> He realised
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Hue
Oct 31, 2013 23:33:08 GMT
Post by Leorion on Oct 31, 2013 23:33:08 GMT
Ohhh Ratchet that is why it is an unspoken rule to always lynch you... >__> He realised <_______< >_______> Just wait when I get subbed in D:< I don't mind what faction, you're going down D:< Not only did you kill me before but you even made town mislynch me >.>
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Hue
Oct 31, 2013 23:40:56 GMT
via mobile
Post by Ratchet on Oct 31, 2013 23:40:56 GMT
He realised <_______< >_______> Just wait when I get subbed in D:< I don't mind what faction, you're going down D:< Not only did you kill me before but you even made town mislynch me >.> You were unconfirmed, and needed to be eliminated. >
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Mac
Vanilla Towny
Posts: 15
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 3:05:11 GMT
Post by Mac on Nov 1, 2013 3:05:11 GMT
Hue.
I shall be quite entertained while spectating this game...
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 15:53:39 GMT
Post by Leorion on Nov 1, 2013 15:53:39 GMT
<_______< >_______> Just wait when I get subbed in D:< I don't mind what faction, you're going down D:< Not only did you kill me before but you even made town mislynch me >.> You were unconfirmed, and needed to be eliminated. > I am always town :3 Always innocent :3 Lesson learned, you confirmed scum Mac Crazy killer Girl be happy with just spectating? D:
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 17:23:09 GMT
Post by Ratchet on Nov 1, 2013 17:23:09 GMT
You were unconfirmed, and needed to be eliminated. > I am always town :3 Always innocent :3 Lesson learned, you confirmed scum Mac Crazy killer Girl be happy with just spectating? D: I'm evil, Samy.
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 17:55:44 GMT
Post by Leorion on Nov 1, 2013 17:55:44 GMT
I am always town :3 Always innocent :3 Lesson learned, you confirmed scum Mac Crazy killer Girl be happy with just spectating? D: I'm evil, Samy. I know >_> Vote Lynch : Ratchet
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 18:03:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by Rotaretilbo on Nov 1, 2013 18:03:18 GMT
I dunno...Ratchet is making a pretty compelling case.
Vote:Leorion
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 20:00:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by Ratchet on Nov 1, 2013 20:00:37 GMT
Time to put Samy at L-1
Vote: Leorion
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 21:07:56 GMT
Post by Leorion on Nov 1, 2013 21:07:56 GMT
I dunno...Ratchet is making a pretty compelling case. Vote:LeorionI call scum buddies D: I need help!! Time to put Samy at L-1 Vote: LeorionNo threat detected... Night Action : Kill Ratchet.
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 22:04:02 GMT
Post by Tiny Tim on Nov 1, 2013 22:04:02 GMT
Vote: Leorion
Well, I win. I was a Lyncher! GG all!
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Hue
Nov 1, 2013 23:52:46 GMT
Post by Leorion on Nov 1, 2013 23:52:46 GMT
Vote: Leorion
Well, I win. I was a Lyncher! GG all! Why is everyone voting poor Leorion ;___; Ratchet admits he can ever be trusted... ;_;
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Hue
Nov 2, 2013 0:12:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by Ratchet on Nov 2, 2013 0:12:51 GMT
Rot and I were scum. GG Leorion.
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Hue
Nov 2, 2013 8:20:40 GMT
Post by Leorion on Nov 2, 2013 8:20:40 GMT
Rot and I were scum. GG Leorion. 2 scum and 1 lyncher vs 1 vanilla? ;___;
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Hue
Nov 2, 2013 9:05:16 GMT
Post by Tiny Tim on Nov 2, 2013 9:05:16 GMT
The rest of town was inactive. Sorry!
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Hue
Nov 3, 2013 12:46:10 GMT
Post by Leorion on Nov 3, 2013 12:46:10 GMT
The rest of town was inactive. Sorry! As usual >_>
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Alfrazar
Galaxy Nation Builder
Posts: 73
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Hue
Nov 6, 2013 1:22:22 GMT
Post by Alfrazar on Nov 6, 2013 1:22:22 GMT
Remember Remember the Fifth of November
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